Vigilance Elite Can I use this target for my back up irons also? Talk me out of 36 yard zero I've read through most pages of the zero threads. at least this is my understanding, its been about 12 years since ive taken a physics course. Well done! This places that same .270 bullet 0.4 inches low at 25 yards, 1.41 inches high at 100 yards, 2.51 inches low at 250 yards and finally slips below the 6 inch vital zone at 257 yards. function() { With both the 55 grn M193 and the 62 grn SS109? Period. Read the part about the Magnus effect. Then, cant your rifle 90 degrees to the right or left and shoot another tight group using the exact same point of aim. At the beginning some anglular rotation is imparted on the bullet that causes it to rise in the early part of its flight. Thank you. If the object cannot rise above the palne of the angle imparted to its fligh how can a bullet rise above the plane of the angle. I appreciate your assistance. The difference between the two zeros opens up to 7/10s of an inch at 50 yards, 1.4″ at 100 yards, and so on. 15 yard zero 25 yards is +0.2 50 yards is -0.6 75 yards is -3.4 100 yards is -8.3 25 yard zero 25 yards is +0.0 50 yards is -1.0 75 yards is -4.0 100 yards is -9.1 Another reason to zero at 10 yards in the accuracy of pistols in general. As it mentions in the USMC manual we referenced above, you can sight in your rifle at a closer range for the same result. The battlesight zero as a concept is very useful to hunters as well. Please click the reload button and complete the captcha once again. thx for approving my user greetings wally. Time limit exceeded. Bullets rise. Anyone who has been in the U.S. Army or Marine Corps is familiar with a battlesight zero or improved battlesight zero (BZ0 or IBZ0). thanks I did score expert during the qualification phase, and expert every time after that, for 24 years. I am not a magical device, I do not have wings or flaps or ailerons. No one who is still trying to understand this shooting 101 concept needs to be confused by spin-effects that won’t affect their early learning curve. What planet are you on? When zeroing at 36yd how then do I zero a DBAL A2 using a constant offset target method. Bullet don’t “rise”, they are deliberately lobbed above the line of sight. And for everyone else I applogize for this Marine, and next time your sighting in down range take a second and look at how your holding the rifle and it will make sense. Frank Proctor uses a 50 Zero at 10 yards, Please Like, Share, and comment. I keep getting conflicting lengths from all the long winded threads in ar15.com and snipershide guys that like to talk about things that have nothing to do with the zero. Such is the case with a battle rifle with a 300 yard zero. The information provided here does not represent the views of Cheaper Than Dirt! Time limit exceeded. no need for formulas fellas, just a minor backround in shooting tin cans and jack rabbits ; ). Before adopting the ACOG sight, the USMC zeroed their 20″ M-16 rifles at 36 yards with 62 grain M855 ammo in order to achieve a 300 yard zero. While a 36/300 yard zero is great for open land, I find it to have a higher than wanted POI over POA in the 75-150 yard range for a CQB type gun. I was in Basic in October 1979, being forced to do what seemed liked countless pushups, flutterkicks, and several other excercises I can’t even remember. Although this is an old post I had to comment. But this will degrade in to a P…..g match, so you sight in your guns your way and I will soldier on with my imperfect understanding of this universe. It is critical that a Marine fires tightly grouped shots directly on the point of aim when establishing a BZO at 36 yards because any error in shot placement at 36 yards will magnify as the bullet travels down range. Most likely you will hit low so what do you do ?… you adjust the rear sights which actually raises the rear sight in elevation. Here’s another cool little experiment…. Please be respectful of others. The hold under for that round is -.70″, and if your sight sits only 1.5″ above bore then you are at a -.41″ with 55 grain and -.40 with 77 grain.  If your round is inside the gray faded circle you are good.  The dashed circle is for acceptable human error and it’s generous.  All of your rounds should really be at least touching the faded circle.  The numbers on the side are adjustments for a .5 MOA sight.  For example, if my round hits at vertical line marked 16 above the 0 then I need to adjust my Eotech 16 clicks down. Its shorter effective range is more suited to urban and jungle warfare where visibility is limited and most engagements are at close range. When you throw a baseball (good buddy of mine) from center field to home plate do you throw it in a straight line or do you lob it up slightly to get more range out of your throw? I’m using a 13.7, I assume this is for either a 14.5” or 16” barrel. A very informative article, but the comments are just downright entertaining. What’s the math big dog? The Mission of Cheaper Than Dirt! I am retired Army SF and my use of swearing was dependent upon target audience and the emphasis I wished to impose…a verbal METT if you will. time) for the bullet to lose this vector and start falling. All comments are held for moderation and will appear after approval. Again this not much to remember and 2″-3″ is not a lot of deviation without doping. Adjust as necessary. Can I use A 36 yard zero for my 300 blackout as well ? Thread Tools Show Printable Version. “You can figure it in your head.” But if your zero is at 200-yards, 250-yards or 300-yards, and your target is at 725 yards… Just like you said. check it out!For more information go to www.triggertimetv.com From the muzzle to approximately 42 yards, the 36 yard zero has a slight advantage over the 50 yard zero. Great thing about this zero is that all the way out to 300 yards, you only have a 5.5" spread. I can zero at 50 yards and know I can still land a shot at 200 yards. })(120000); Any help appreciated, thanks Though i believe he is right when he says that the trajectory will not rise above the angle that it is fired from because of gravity, he will not understand until someone explains that there are two angles to consider. Discounting a very small amount of spin induced lift, gravitational anomalies, and possibly weather related input; a bullet will not rise of it’s own accord. This gives the Marine a good aiming point for a man sized target at any distance between 0 and just over 300 yards. The 100 yard zero with a .223/5.56mm AR-15 carbine is a unique trajectory in that the bullet just “kisses” the line of sight at 100 yards and rides along it for approximately 10 yards before dropping back down below the line of sight. Your second post is correct. By plugging in the information for that load, we can see that the bullet should hit 2.2″ high at 50 yards (if you were at a 100 yard range, it would hit 4.45″ high). Hello everyone. The 50 yard zero provides for effective center-mass hits on target at the ranges where a carbine is most commonly used. If the illustration showed the rifle angled so that the barrel pointed along the initial bullet trajectory, this argument would all go away. From 50 yards out to approximately 235 yards, the 50 yard zero has a distinct advantage over the 36 yards zero. If your barrel was aligned perfectly horizontally, then yes, the bullet would drop immediately. Suspend a bullet at the same exact height as the muzzle. I have never been in the military, but now am thinking that i should have signed up just to teach some of these hard headed leathernecks a thing or two about the first thing you should learn as a leatherneck…joking. Then I came across the below YT video from Shawn Ryan who talked about the 36 yard zero. AR15 200 Yard ZERO at 10 Yards Today I am going to show you a method to sight in your AR15 at 10 yards to achieve a 50 and 200 yard Zero. Like a ball, it is this angle, not angular momentum, which causes it to rise. All-Copper Handgun Bullets: Are They Worth It? The 36 Yard Zero Target. Once again referring us to Wikipedia is not an effective argument. When I download this, what are the dimensions of each square to ensure that I have the correct size? You guys must have slept throught physics 101. yes, both gravity and friction act on a bullet and will cause it to fall, which is why a bullet drops. Thanks! Can you clarify the sizing, scaling and printer set up a little better? You will need to find the maximum point blank range for your unique rifle, optic, and cartridge combination. A bullet doesn’t rise? (Don’t worry about the sights, they are irrelavant for this experiment) And then it will be back within 2.5" back just over 200. But it can rise IN RELATION TO THE GROUND if the bore is angled upward. The battlesight zero used by Marines when shooting the iron sight M16A2 is the 36/300 zero, meaning that the bullet will be on the sight line at 36 yards and again at 300 yards. Please click the reload button and complete the captcha once again. Now you may hit your 400m target with the arc of the trajectory allowing for further distance. While looking at your video and comparing my printed copy your seems slightly more larger on the actual paper. Gravity takes effect immediately on exit from the bore. Get a bunch of gun nuts together and a physics fight breaks out. 7 It is equal to 3 feet or 36 inches, defined as 91.44 centimeters. Hi, is there another save method to print the target? Can’t seem to get the scaling right. Since the barrel is only slightly canted, it doesn’t take long (i.e. So the bullet goes up, levels off, and starts down. Put a rifle in a clamp with the barrel exactly two feet high and exactly perpendicular (level) to the ground. At 1,000 yards, that translates to 10-inch or 10 MOA groups. In the recent carbine courses we have discussed various yard lines to zero your rifles along with the pros and cons of each yard line. I printed off one of your 36 yard targets. 👍🏼. If I were a civilian or law enforcement officer I would zero with the large aperture at 50/200 yards and leave my sights alone as most defensive or even offensive shots required by civilians or patrol officers will be well within 200 yards. notice.style.display = "block"; I scaled to 100% and got it to print but it seems to not fill up most of the regular size house printer paper. First: [email protected]#k your political correctness. The barrel of the M16 (and probably MOST rifles) is pointed at an upward angle, so yes the bullet WILL rise initially. We want you, our readers, to be able to make informed decisions. I am sure the Magnus effect is real, but to the discussion of trajectory rise, it is im sure just a small part of the causes of trajectory rise. I apologize, for I seem to have misunderstood your original comment. In flight, however, it’s trajectory does rise above it’s target-sight line. With a 36 yard zero, you should have approximately a 5 inch spread from 25-300 yards. Based off of the size of the vital area of your target, you can compute the maximum rise and drop tolerable for your cartridge. It’s a matter of perspective, as some have pointed out. I am a bullet. Even differences such as the scope you have mounted on your particular rifle will change the MPBR and subsequent zero. Well…I guess I better hold off a while on the Ginger or Maryann debate!! Through Science! You must be a new school Marine. (The target is specifically for your AR-15 / M-4. And get same CD size from 36 to 300 yards as a 556? For the subsonic zero range: 10/100 yard zero. What Zero do you use? Some of you are arguing that various forces can cause a bullet to literally “rise” above it’s bore-sight line. Check out the rest of the video to find out how to save time at the range when zeroing your AR-15. }, Frank Proctor uses a 50 Zero at 10 yards, check it out! (629) 333-8117 Does this target work for zeroing iron sights? The 25 yard zero (red line) and 30 yard zero (green line) have very little (if any) rise over the point of aim, but their trajectories suffer significantly at longer ranges, dropping as much as ~5.75″ at 100 yards. Range is 2 1/2 hours away. var notice = document.getElementById("cptch_time_limit_notice_41"); timeout Will this also work for the 62 grain ammo? I measured them at .400. 510 Columbia Ave Unit Box 1011 Note to readers: Please click the share buttons above or below. This is why most military arms have a left hand twist to the rifling. Required fields are marked *, (function( timeout ) { 25 yard zero has a spread of 10" and 50 yard zero has a spread of 9.5". it's a great zero for red dots especially for the 200 and in range for what most people are going to be using it for for self defense etc. Some of you people arguing about bullet “rise” are arguing semantics. Yes, gravity does have an immediate effect, which is not (as in the example of the baseball) to make it fall as soon as it leave the barrel, but to *decrease* its upward velocity. First of frank, it is very unbecoming of a Marine to speak as such while representing the Marine Corps I know in the infantry I would make sure you’d never make that mistake. Well to componsate for the fall of the bullet as it looses speed and atmospheric pressure takes more and moreeffect on pushing the bullet down. Now I am sure they teach this in boot frank so maybe you should go back and re learn it, and hey while your there go ahead and pick up some common sense, and then defiinantly study up on your Corps values and learn to embrace them. Your email address will not be published. (Of course, this formula discounts the effects of air resistance, which in our case is not a very bad assumption since the *vertical* velocity of the bullet is so small, while its *horizontal* velocity is quite large. The USMC also uses the 50/225 IBZ0 for M16A3 rifles equipped with Trijicon ACOG scopes. It's , talk me out of a 36 yard zero. For the moron who stated that bullets don’t rise, just put your science to the test by vising in a rifle zeroed at 300 yards on a target 24″ high and the straddle the line of sight at 100 yards. With our rifle zeroed for these distances, we can be assured that a perfectly centered aim on a deer at any distance between 0 and nearly 300 yards will result in a hit in the vital area of our target. Even though you feel as if the rifle is level, it in fact is not. Mule deer, elk, and moose have vital areas that are significantly larger. It is evident he has never been in any of the Combat Arms MOSs (if he was even in the military). You will still need to confirm and refine your BZO at those appropriate distances. The angle of your sights and or your view when aiming will be 0° in reference to the target because this is what your doing when aligning your iron sights with target; but now your barrel is angled up slightly. It first crosses the line of sight on its upward path of trajectory at 36 yards, and again farther down range at 300 yards. If a Marine does not consider trajectory, he may shoot over the top of the target if the target is small and at a distance other than 300 yards/meters. All zeroed in at 36 yards! If you don’t know how to make them all the same elevation, go to home depot or lowes and buy and learn how to use an auto rotary laser level. First, PK posted on April 30, 2010 that a “bullet NEVER rises once it leaves the muzzle of any firearm.” I can’t tell if he is joking or if he is that damn stupid. bob. We reserve the right to edit as appropriate, delete profane, harassing, abusive and spam comments or posts, and block repeat offenders.  =  In no case, ever, will a bullet rise above the axis of the bore after leaving the muzzle. If that were always the case, then it would be impossible to hit a target at the same elevation. If the 26 yard zero theory is accurate to say within 6-8” then when I go to the range I can just pay for the 200 yard range and dial it in vs. paying for say the 100 then the 200. The commenters are all correct, in their own frame of reference. Curious if anyone's heard of this idea before. The illustration above demonstrates how a battlesight zero works. The 50-yard zero has flatter hold unders than the 36 yard zero out to 200. 36 yards zero is about 1.25" high at 100 yards 25 will get you to 325ish and 2+ " high at 100. setTimeout( “With a 100-yard zero, there’s just that easy one-to-one correspondence,” says Vaughn. First the angle of the line of sight from which you are aiming via iron sights or scope, and the angle of the barrel itself. I found that at a 10 yard zero, the point of impact is +2.5 inches at 50 yards and -2.7 inches at 100 yards. But to be accurate, you need to shoot at 300 yards to verify your zero. Those of us who Remember physics 101 (and in my case, teach Calculus 101, which uses physics problems as examples) remember a formula like h = v_0 t – 1/2 at^2, where v_0 is the initial (upward) velocity, a is the acceleration due to gravity (e.g. simple physics. Figure out a way to release the bullet at the exact same instant that a bullet fired from the rifle leaves the muzzle. −  Is there a true measurement for poa vs poi in order to do this so I can just measure and make my own sharpie dot to compensate for the drop while trying to do a 36 yard zero at 25 yards. You may not have access to a 300-yard rifle range, or even a 200-yard rifle range. I’d hate to think the USMC would disagree. What does change is the trajectory of the individual bullet/cartridge. Nvm I get it. So without swearing I have agreed with Frank to explain how some people just don’t get the point with politeness because they make their half-assed opinions their religion. I’ve got some 25 zeroing targets on my site at http://www.spuler.us/gunsandammo/?p=253 — both for M4 carbine, and M16 style rifles. Thank you for your service! Standard ballistic table provide that information. It is the angle of the rifle when the rear sight is elevated(or scope) that would make it seem as if the bullet would have an upward trajectory. “What does change is the trajectory of the individual bullet/cartridge.”. When I launch a ball, even at an upward angle the flight of the ball will never rise about the plane of the angle thrown. And then it will be back within 2.5" back just over 200. 225 yards equals 205 meters or 200 meters. Most white tail deer for example have a vital area that is generally 10 inches in diameter. If the bullet never rose, it would never hit the point of aim. When scaled to 100% the target is much larger than an 8.5×11″ piece of paper. This conversation is just killing me! If you really want to try it out, go sight in at 36 yards. End of story. The concept for an MPBR or battlesight zero is pretty much the same: zero the rifle so that you get a point of aim that is effective over the longest range. I'd assume this works, since it came from Frank Proctor. display: none !important; At 25 yards, groups are .7” inches high above center of target, just under 3/4", w/ rear sight set on “2”- so a 200 meter battle zero is a little better. Get notified when 9mm, .223 Rem., and Other Popular Calibers are in Stock & Ready to Ship. ); The magnitude of the effect of each of these forces is up for debate depending on the EXACT place (as in latitude and longitude), distance and elevation to target, air pressure, air density, humidity, and trajectory of the shot. The sight line should be shown as level, not the gun. The illustration is confusing (and pretty lame, to be that confusing – I blame the art department.). A large mule deer has a vital area around 12″ in diameter, an average elk around 15″, and a good sized moose nearly 21″. When the sight angle between the bore and the scope is set correctly, the bullet will RISE until it reaches the apex of its trajectory, crossing through the line of sight once on the way up and once on the way down. BREAKING: NFA Registration To Be Required for Pistol Braces? it's a great zero for red dots especially for the 200 and in range for what most people are going to be using it for for self defense etc. I know this is hard for some of you to understand but trust me, this is what I was born to do. It is a poor crutch for a man with a small vocabulary and in most cases, little intelligence.” That was a direct quote from Pamphlet 21-13, Department of the Army September 1964). Yards : A yard (symbol: yd) is a basic unit of length which is commonly used in United States customary units, Imperial units and the former English units. Inquiring minds want to know. I tried saving it in a few different formats but no luck. Yes, the Magnus Effect probably has some effect on a bullet in flight. The US Army uses what is referred to as an improved battlesight zero, which calibrates the rifle to be dead on at 50 and at 225 yards. }. The over simplified example in the Marine manual is horribly worded and the illustration is even worse leading to this widespread misconception. Frank should have learned that at home. In that case I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a zeroing target for some flip ups today. As you know, traditionally the sighting device is 1″ – 2.5″ above the bore. That includes the military guys, unless you are a trained sniper. Before pulling the trigger, get a precision level and see how far your barrel is aiming upwards, thus showing you that the round goes up because you are pointing the rifle up, but aiming your sights level. I’ve saved off as a .jpeg, .png, .pdf, .bitmap and none seem to scale work appropriately. The ball’s trajectory will never rise above the angle at which it is thrown; nor will the bullet’s trajectory. A simple search on the internet under “ballistics” would have ended that noise. Facebook Please Like, Share and Subscribe Music by YouTube Creators Music from Jukedeck – create your own at . A hit from a medium caliber rifle to this area will result in a quick kill. So, depending on the target’s location, it can cross the line of sight twice. Yes, I would like to receive offers and newsletters from Cheaper Than Dirt. Even though this post is old and although some have posted since it’s beginning, I had to say something. That’s why the bullet is launched—like a ball is thrown— at an upward angle. The 36 Yard Zero Feb 23, 2018; Filed under 36 yd Zero, carbine target, rifle zero, sighting in target, Target, Vigilance Elite 36 yard zero, Vigilance Elite target, zero target; Discussion 161 comments In fact, if you have a good bench rest and a gridded target you can, with a little math, perfectly achieve a MPBR zero on your rifle at any range. The MPBR is the maximum range at which the bullet rise and drop stays within the vital area of your target. The bullet is fired from the barrel and rises up to be exactly on the line of sight at 36 yards. Find the manufacturers information on your favorite rifle load, google up a ballistics calculator, and in just a few minutes after plugging in your data you’ll have a good MPBR zero for your setup. Luckily, if your rifle is properly sighted in for its maximum point blank range (MPBR) you don’t need to know the exact distance. Lets assume for this example that our range only has a 50 yard rifle range. The round does rise when leaving the muzzle, but only because the barrel is pointed at an upwards angle relative to the sight plane. ARMA DYNAMICS recommends a 50 yard zero for your AR-15 rifle. If you are planning on shooting the majority of time within 125 yards I dont see a benefit of a 36/300 zero and actually see some decent minuses for it. Shopping with us is absolutely safe - you never have to worry about credit card safety when shopping here... Share your latest AR build or photos from the range with #RangeDayFriday for a chance to win a new firearm! The bullet never rises above the straight line projected by the bore site. If you were shooting a thousand yards in a stiff cross-wind, you might miss by 1/4″ from the Magnus Effect and 4 feet from wind-induced drift. USMC 83-87 I do not rise up in flight to hit people in the balls as Tj suggested. Any favorite ballistic calculators out there? Gravity DOES start taking effect immediately. it saves as a webP file and for some reason the file does not open using many different viewers on my pc like PDF, photo viewer, paint etc… 8.5×11? I did maximize to 100% but squares seem small. The US Army uses what is referred to as an improved battlesight zero, which calibrates the rifle to be dead on at 50 and at 225 yards. A 50 yard zero allows the shooter to use a simple center-mass hold to ranges of point blank to 200-250 yards, depending on rifle and ammunition combination. This zero technique is based on the fact that the bore and sight line (whether scope or iron sites) intersect downrange. Got it. It’s the curve of an object in flight, otherwise known as the RISE and FALL of an object. Second, Tom rebuked Frank for his foul mouth, which was appropriate. Thanks Shawn. At a minimum he won’t procreate the race anymore and this planet will indeed be a better place. Chiming in on what was stated by Tom in post 17, follow this link for a better explanation http://m14forum.com/m16-ar15/29561-adjusting-your-iron-sights.html If not, in short, we (as in Marines) set our sites for 300 yards. You cannot go wrong with either. Thanks for doing these videos !! Just click on it and save it or pull it to your Home Screen and print . Anyone want to bet me a beer that the second group is NOT going to be in the same place? You might want to contact the United States Marine Corps and let them know that “a bullet never rises” as they feel differently. Where I impact a target is more a matter of your perspective (line of sight) than magic rotational effects. See if it is. they have figured out a target you can zero on at 10 yards which will give you a 50/200 yard zero for your rifle at range. Is there a published ballistic table for proper BSZ for the 16″ AR-15 or the 14.5″ M4? zero if ( notice ) please disregard request; used IE browser instead of Firefox, and image saved as a .PNG file. At other distances, the strike of the bullet will be less than 7 1/2 inches above the point of aim. Since the bullet DOES start dropping immediately, the bore is actually pointed slightly upward relative to the line of aim. So, why were you trying to school me and also tell me to go relearn. Only at 36 yards/30 meters and 300 yards/meters does the point of impact coincide with the point of aim. If a rifle is zeroed for 300 yards, the bullet crosses the line of sight twice. “Political Correctness”? No. In fact, that 55gr 5.56mm with its muzzle velocity of around 3200ft/s has an initial vertical velocity in the neighborhood of 6.5ft/sec.). This is also why there are TWO intersections to your zero: the bore ends below the plane of your sights, but because of that cant, the bullet is traveling upwards, through that plane and beyond, where it begins to fall back down through the plane of your sights. It then continues to rise, topping out at 6″-7″ depending on the round used and the barrel length of the rifle. Mostly curious since, the only shooting range in my area is an indoor range, 21 yards max - so doing 10 yards wont be a problem compared to 50 yards. Your discussions, feedback and comments are welcome here as long as they are relevant and insightful. A bullet fired from a horizontal barrel immediately drops to earth never rising above the bore axis. the same principle you describe states basically that if the air on one side of an object is moving faster than the air on the other side of an object, it will create lift. Period. Now we have a military where Affirmative Action Figures are more cherished than warriors as the Ultimate AAF has converted the military more into a Camouflage Welfare System and Social Experiment than even the Clintons. I’m using firefox and its slowly becoming the bane of my existence as I’ve got 3 different sizes so far. Which, Is becoming a major downfall of our country. The sites will angle the rifle upwards because of gravity pulling the round down. what size paper is this scaled for? Or have angles become curves in this universe of which you speak?